Getting Into Infosec, Episode 23: Hossam Mohamed - Young Hacker to "Not A Security Researcher"
Published May 26, 2019 · 29 minutes
Episode page: https://www.gettingintoinfosec.com/episodes/hossam/

[0:00] Ayman Elsawah: And so how do you deal with some of the more boring aspects of your job? Because I'm sure there's boring times.

[0:05] Hossam Mohamed: No, no. Actually, there is no kind of boring job.

[0:08] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[0:08] Hossam Mohamed: Today is Saturday. Okay. And I'm in the office. I'm talking with you while I'm in the office. I'm in the meeting room, actually. And I'm in the office because it's more about I like the job. I love the job. This is my day, you know?

[0:22] Ayman Elsawah: Nice.

[0:22] Hossam Mohamed: I feel bad when I get sick because I don't go to work. I don't do my job. I don't open my laptop and look into code. I don't, you know, I don't get into someone's system.

[0:51] Ayman Elsawah: Hey everyone, I'm Ayman Elsua and this is Getting Into Infosec. My guest this week is Hossam Mohamed, aka Waze Hell. Hossam is my first international guest, so I'm really excited about that. He's also my youngest guest, so at 19, he got into computers and security really early on.

[1:05] Hossam Mohamed: And I wanted to understand how these games work.

[1:07] Ayman Elsawah: Because of that, he's also faced some challenges getting work.

[1:10] Hossam Mohamed: The thing is, it didn't work because of my age and because of my education. I was only 18.

[1:18] Ayman Elsawah: Hassem likes to go deep on the subject, such as malware and reverse engineering.

[1:21] Hossam Mohamed: People just think when it's about assembly and reverse engineering, oh man, this is untouchable. This is like, you know, too much low-level stuff. No, I'm telling you, there's much more lower levels than that.

[1:31] Ayman Elsawah: He even dreams in code. I stumbled onto Hassem when I was accepted for the B-Sides Istanbul conference, so he's also one of the organizers and the speaker as well.

[1:39] Hossam Mohamed: All right, on to the show.

[1:40] Ayman Elsawah: All right, Hassem, welcome to the show.

[1:42] Hossam Mohamed: You're welcome, man.

[1:43] Ayman Elsawah: So you're a 19-year-old security researcher in Istanbul, from what I understand. Is that right?

[1:48] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, it's all right, but I'm not calling myself a security researcher.

[1:53] Ayman Elsawah: That's right.

[1:53] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, as you mentioned before, I'm just 19 years old, you know. So I didn't reach this stage of my life that I can call myself a security researcher, but one day I will be. Yeah, that's what my person said. Okay.

[2:08] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. So yeah, I noticed that your headline is quote unquote, not a security researcher.

[2:13] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah.

[2:14] Ayman Elsawah: And so let's talk about all the non-security research you've done over the past years.

[2:20] Hossam Mohamed: About the career or employment.

[2:23] Ayman Elsawah: Well, let's start from the beginning. So let's talk about, you know, some of the things you've done today. I have noticed are pretty active. You have a pretty good GitHub, few articles on the medium. And you have been employed in the security field. So maybe tell us about like some of the things you've done lately. And then we could talk about your past.

[2:43] Hossam Mohamed: Thing is, I don't really maybe agree with achievement that I got is OSC. It's not really big achievement for me, but we will counting it as big one. So I took it like this. But it wasn't, you know, just a checkpoint for me. That's a proof for my knowledge, because as you told in the beginning, I'm just 19 years old. So no one would hire someone 19 years old into cybersecurity field. Yeah.

[3:12] Ayman Elsawah: So why is that?

[3:14] Hossam Mohamed: Why is that? Because of my age, because of, you know, there is a lot of limitations out there for education and age problem. Also, you know, it's kind of a problem for companies, but not all of companies, you know. So for me, after OSCE, I started getting a lot of job offers from around the world, actually. But I decided to stay in Turkey and focus on my study and continue my education there. So I will attend electronic engineering program next year. I hope so. And once I finish, maybe I will focus on academic parts of my life.

[3:51] Ayman Elsawah: I see.

[3:52] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, besides security.

[3:54] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. And so you did work a little bit as a security analyst. Is that right?

[3:58] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah i work as a security analyst for business solution company i was handling not only you know kind of security analysis for servers and so on i was handling also application security parts because i love code okay i love looking to code i like write code and so on so i'm kinda into application security But there's a difference, of course, between application security term and bug hunting, you know. I'm not a bug hunter or something like that. I like, you know, white box approach more than black box one, specifically in application security stuff.

[4:34] Ayman Elsawah: And were you doing like code reviews and things like that?

[4:37] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, like code reviews and so on.

[4:39] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[4:39] Hossam Mohamed: Securing code and so on.

[4:41] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. And so you decided to hold off on your career to go back and study. Is that right?

[4:52] Hossam Mohamed: Quite hard but i don't have another choice i will do it because i cannot stop my career okay it's already started yes you know so i cannot just stop it so i will continue i know it's hard but you know i hope everything going well okay and tell us about your youth it says you've been on the computer since you were four so tell us about you know how you got into technology and then more specifically into hacking yeah since i was four I just found myself like computers and so on, you know. I got my first computer since I was four. I didn't even remember that I was four and I was sitting in a computer, but my mom kept telling me that you was four and you was using the computer, you know.

[5:32] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah, my memories are right.

[5:34] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, of course. I believe in that. Yeah, I remember that. Then it just started with games, you know, and I wanted to understand how these games work. Then I got the idea about the codes. There is a code running, you know, there's kind of zero and ones on this computer. And I really wanted to understand what is going on and what is going on. Why is this zeros and ones, you know? So I started learning, oh, there's something called codes because I was like games. And still, actually, I'm kind of a crazy gamer, you know?

[6:06] Ayman Elsawah: Mm-hmm.

[6:07] Hossam Mohamed: So i started you know research about code and all this stuff in school library and so on because i didn't have internet okay oh okay and this you know early age so i got internet when i was 10 or something like that And it was you know my entry point but i spent like two years like middle school time you know just downloading games and play games and so on then i realized that i need to back to my right pass which is code okay so i started learning code and i was preparing myself to be you know a computer hacker you know yeah so i thought that what got you interested in hacking did you see movies what was it that got you interested in hacking Just movies about hacking, you know, hackers, movie and so on.

[6:55] Hossam Mohamed: Everything related to computers, actually, not just hacking.

[6:59] Ayman Elsawah: I see.

[6:59] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah. Then I started learning code. I started with web language. I didn't start with C or something like that, but I just started with simple front-end languages. And I go through back-end language like PHP. Actually, at this moment, I wasn't know any kind of this term like there's front end or back end. I just was learning how this is going to work, you know, and even I developed a project for my school, a really simple project using B2B and HTML. They liked it, but no one cares actually.

[7:33] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, okay. Was it part of a computer science class or just?

[7:35] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, it was just computer science class in high school. Okay. So, you know, in high school, I was already know PHP and Python as backend language and not really good knowledge about them, but I was more interested in Python. Besides that, I was already started hacking, you know, let's just be clear, you know, kids always play. And no one in Infotech doesn't play a little bit all times and so on. So I played a bit around web hacking and maybe pop up some shells and so on. You know, that's it. Then after high school, I decided that I have to take a decision on my career and I have to start my career. Since, you know, last year in high school, I already knew about web security. Plus, I knew a little more about programming for web specifically.

[8:26] Hossam Mohamed: Then I decided it's okay, I have to start something right now. So I decided, you know, move along first, then I have clear mind and start studying more and more and more.

[8:36] Ayman Elsawah: You decided to move alone?

[8:38] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, I was trying to move out. I decided to move to Istanbul because I came here when I was a kid, I remember. And I was like, oh, this place is really good. I wish I would live here. Because people living here are so lucky in this place, you know, it's a good place and so on. It was just a small trip, you know. So I just like the place and I was good.

[9:00] Ayman Elsawah: And did you have money? I mean, you just finished high school. Like, did you just took some cash and went?

[9:04] Hossam Mohamed: No, no, no. I already handled on this period freelance projects. Okay. One of them was penetration test project.

[9:12] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. So you're already doing some freelance work when you're in Egypt.

[9:15] Hossam Mohamed: Freelance work, yeah.

[9:16] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, nice. Okay.

[9:17] Hossam Mohamed: And before getting into penetration testing projects, I was into web development projects.

[9:22] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, I see.

[9:23] Hossam Mohamed: So that make a really good money for me.

[9:25] Ayman Elsawah: I see.

[9:25] Hossam Mohamed: And I was, you know, just living with my parents, so I didn't spend too much, so I would have too much money.

[9:31] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[9:32] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, then I started doing, you know, some Pinterest projects for small clients and so on, you know. So I got the money required and I told myself, it's okay, I can start now. So when I moved to Istanbul, I was having no amount of money to live, like really good time to learn something and chill out, you know. But I decided I don't want to chill out. I want to learn something. I want to start my career. So I started looking for a job or something like that. And actually, somehow I have been dropped an interview on Instagram. Really international big company okay however then i got into this interview you know it was like technical interview was great and the guys into interview like me too much and so on but you know thing is didn't work because of my age and because of my education i was only 18 okay it's

[10:24] Ayman Elsawah: So what did they say?

[10:25] Hossam Mohamed: So they liked you, but they... Yeah, but we cannot just hire you right now. You can go to university or something like that. And we can come back again and we will hire you as an intern or something like that.

[10:36] Ayman Elsawah: Wow. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

[10:39] Hossam Mohamed: So I told them, it's okay. It was a really bad day for me, actually. But... I found, you know, startup and business solution. Then I started working for them as security analyst. I always care about securing servers and so on. I was working, you know, also on application security. So I was working with system administrators and IT guys. As well, I was working with development team. So I was handling tasks between both of those teams. But I got really huge experience from this company because, as I told you, I was working in two different levels. I improved my development skills too much.

[11:17] Ayman Elsawah: You improved your what skills? Your document skills?

[11:19] Hossam Mohamed: No, no, my development skills. Coding skills.

[11:21] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, development skills. Okay.

[11:24] Hossam Mohamed: I got, you know, too much information about a lot of stuff. And since, you know, I already know about, I know Python, for example, I learned it batch on this company. Got some batch skills as well, PowerShell and so on. So I was automating my tasks and so on. So I got kind of Free time to improve myself more and more and doing some research okay nice so i decided to get into exploitation okay since i was you know some Plus and so on i learned it not from too much time ago but i just quick pass on them so i can understand most of cnc plus because it's not big deal you know since you are into programming and code you can understand any syntax in this world because the logic is the same every language so it wasn't a big deal right so i decided to get into cnc plus code reviews and i hunted some do you ever dream in code yeah actually

[12:25] Ayman Elsawah: Because you've been coding so young, you know, do you actually dream in code? Like, do you solve coding problems while you're sleeping?

[12:31] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, actually, I don't know how did you know that, but it happened for me once. And let me tell you about something. It's really weird, you know. I was sleeping and I dreamed like something like that, you know. I just waked up and opening my laptop and running Wireshark, then I slept. That's it.

[12:50] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[12:50] Hossam Mohamed: So I thought that I can capture the dream using Wireshark or something like that.

[12:57] Ayman Elsawah: Nice.

[12:57] Hossam Mohamed: It was really weird, you know? When I woke up in the morning, I told myself, what the heck I did? Why are you opening White Shark? Then I remembered, you know? Yeah, I dreamed it was code, but not solving problems. No, okay. I dreamed like I'm writing zero days on all of this stuff. Yeah.

[13:17] Ayman Elsawah: All right. Well, it's only your dreams. Okay.

[13:19] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah. One day, actually, I dreamed like with web exploits. And next day, it was really exist because I was reviewing this application. Okay. But, you know, I just passed at this point for a letter check. When I go home and slept, I dreamed about next day. Oh, it exists. It's executable.

[13:38] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, okay. Yeah. There you go. I mean, the subconscious is really powerful.

[13:43] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah. And also dreams, you know.

[13:45] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah, yeah. Can't underestimate. Okay, cool. So now you're consulting, you're learning more about development, you're trying to do more exploit development, correct? Right? I think you recently got the OSCE, is that right? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[13:56] Hossam Mohamed: I don't have too much experience in exploitation, but I can tell you that I learned too much about exploitation. I got into more and more low-level details. Right now I can read assembly like normal code, you know? So I can imagine how code patterns and how execution flow working. You know, like if it's been some for loops and so on, then this is coming from, you know, reading too much assembly code. So people just think when it's about assembly and reverse engineering, oh my God, this is untouchable. This is like, you know, too much low level stuff. No, I'm telling you there's much more lower level than that. Yeah, but, you know, I just like assembly and low-level exploitation. I felt like this is real security.

[14:41] Hossam Mohamed: This is how you can make an impact in systems. You cannot just go through a system from web apps. You have, you know, exploiting service and so on.

[14:54] Ayman Elsawah: And what are your interests? Like, so now you're in between jobs or I guess, you know, you're just doing some freelancing. What's your ideal next step?

[15:01] Hossam Mohamed: Currently, I'm working in two jobs for now. I'm working full-time in an education-related company in Istanbul. It's one of the biggest companies for education solutions in Istanbul. I'm kind of handling most of universities in Turkey's security.

[15:21] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, nice. Plenty of security need there.

[15:24] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, also into application security, which means more code and more code review. Even writing some code. It's a small company, but I like it because they kind of helped me to get me into my academic education best.

[15:40] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, I see.

[15:41] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah. Another company, which is Cyber Struggle, it's a training company. They are a Turkish company. But recently, they started their startup in Estonia. And, you know, this guy is really skilled technically and so on. I joined them recently as a lab developer. So I'm developing labs for offensive security labs, running machines and so on. And, you know, they are going to start kind of new trainings. They will, you know, change the game on training-filled cybersecurity. I hope so. So I'm working also with them. So that's my current employment status. But I don't write all this, you know, on LinkedIn or CV or whatever because it doesn't matter right now.

[16:30] Ayman Elsawah: And what's your favorite part of security? Exploit development, malware analysis, pen testing?

[16:35] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, malware analysis. Yeah, I didn't mention about malware analysis. You know, I'm into malware analysis also. It's like one of my daily jobs because I'm receiving malwares from, as I told you, universities and so on. Even, you know, some Linux malwares affected Linux servers starting to analysis it and so on. So I like really malware analysis stuff.

[16:57] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[16:57] Hossam Mohamed: Going through binaries and so on.

[17:00] Ayman Elsawah: Nice.

[17:00] Hossam Mohamed: To be specifically and be clear, I improved my assembly skills, okay, and better understanding of assembly code and reverse engineering from malware analysis, not from exploitation. Then when I got into exploitation, it was kind of pretty easy. I know assembly, of course. I already have some information. Then I started to study code patterns of bugs and so on, like use of trophy and all of this cool stuff.

[17:28] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. So how did you find your freelance gigs often earlier in your career?

[17:33] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, it's about, you know, I got some connections. Okay. So I started freelance locally. Then I started globally, like, okay, I will be clear for you. I was making tons of accounts on Upwork and freelance and, you know, running some booths. Okay. I will talk clearly, you know, it's okay. So I was running kind of booths and collecting jobs. That's it.

[17:55] Ayman Elsawah: Nice, okay.

[17:56] Hossam Mohamed: But I work on freelance websites just stuff right now.

[18:00] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[18:01] Hossam Mohamed: Also, I don't work like this kind of freelance stuff anymore because I already have like one full-time job as well as a part-time job because I struggle and Yeah but for those out there looking to start their career sometimes freelance is a good way to start so yeah of course also to getting some knowledge some challenges but when it's about hacking and security i got into freelance because no too much programming and so on but when it's about security and so on people looking for bug hunting and so on okay Yeah. And web bug hunting specifically, like hacker one, bug crowd and so on.

[18:37] Ayman Elsawah: Do you participate in bug bounties?

[18:39] Hossam Mohamed: I didn't get into bug bounties. Okay. I'm doing security research, but I'm not the bad guy here. But when I found a bug and it's not kind of valuable, you know, because people keep reporting really silly issues as security issues. And I cannot understand why companies pay for this bug. Like missing rate limits. What is the impact of missing rate limits, you know? What is the security impact? It's okay. It's kind of resources impact, okay? Like you're sending emails, maybe user information. Yeah, it's kind of what affects the business itself. But what is the security impact? Impact from like you have a platform with 10k users maximum okay let's imagine that there is an endpoint somewhere and you have like missing rate limits on login okay it's maybe a little bit security but this doesn't serve you know that much point you just give it to security research as well putting him how

[19:39] Hossam Mohamed: You know, because these people keep, you know, I know in the past, like I have like more than 100 holoform and so on. And this is coming from missing security headers and really not even security bugs, you know. So that's why I'm not into bug points. But I'm doing security research. I have some bugs, you know. And I'm just dealing with companies directly. So if I got a project, okay, that's my project. That's my bugs. So I don't have to get into back point. Since also I don't have time for back point. It's good money, of course, but unfortunately I don't have time for back point.

[20:16] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. And so how do you deal with some of the more boring aspects of your job? Because I'm sure there's boring times.

[20:22] Hossam Mohamed: No, no, actually there is no kind of boring job.

[20:25] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[20:25] Hossam Mohamed: Today is Saturday. Okay. And I am in the office. I'm talking with you while I'm in the office. I'm meeting room actually. And I'm in the office because it's more about I like the job. I love the job. This is my day, you know.

[20:39] Ayman Elsawah: Nice.

[20:39] Hossam Mohamed: I feel bad when I get sick because I don't go to work. I don't do my job. I don't open my laptop and look into code. I don't, you know, I don't get into someone's system, for example. You know, so I told you I was in computer since I was four.

[20:56] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah.

[20:57] Hossam Mohamed: When, you know, I'm far from my computer, like for two or three days, maybe I will be depressed or something like that.

[21:04] Ayman Elsawah: Wow. Have withdrawal symptoms. Yeah, really.

[21:07] Hossam Mohamed: This is my life, man. Nice.

[21:09] Ayman Elsawah: I love this. That's awesome. So what is some advice you'd have for others trying to get into the field?

[21:14] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, it's depending actually on the one who wants to get into the field. Like, you can't really do it because it's all about you. It's all about your study. It's all about your research. It's all about your time. So there is nothing called, I will get into information security and I will start studying some courses and then I will become an information security expert. This is the reality of outside, you know. So you have, you know, to development yourself. And I prefer you and suggest people want to start starting from low level stuff. Because if you want to break something, you need, you know, to understand how it's work first. So you can crack it better. Not even just to understand how it's work, but build one.

[21:59] Hossam Mohamed: Build your own and crack it. And so on. That's about security field. You cannot just getting into security field with just silly courses and This kind of course is, you know, online offers and so on. But also it's required, you know, attending some conferences and training as well. You know, you have to do it somehow. But this is not all you can do for getting into cybersecurity.

[22:25] Ayman Elsawah: Okay.

[22:25] Hossam Mohamed: I'm talking about university students, for example.

[22:28] Ayman Elsawah: Oh, for students. Uh-huh.

[22:29] Hossam Mohamed: As well as high school students, it's like you don't have too much time to make kind of study for cybersecurity and so on. But you can make it like part of your day, you know. For example, I was working too far place, which place I was living in. It's like two hours by bus, okay?

[22:49] Ayman Elsawah: Mm-hmm.

[22:50] Hossam Mohamed: So I got like four hours per day. So I decided to use this time by reading books and so on. And I got really huge knowledge from that time, you know, because this time is already, you are spending it in your day. So spend it in something useful in your life because you'll just need this somehow or someday or whatever. Getting so much information and knowledge Not bad thing at all. You can just improve yourself and read books.

[23:20] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah.

[23:21] Hossam Mohamed: Not just read books or watching videos. As I told you, we have to build it, then understand it, then crack it. That's it.

[23:30] Ayman Elsawah: That's awesome. So do you have any interesting war stories from your time? Any interesting that you can share with us?

[23:35] Hossam Mohamed: Actually, you know, I have, you know, like weird dream story. You can take it as a story, you know.

[23:43] Ayman Elsawah: Okay. But like any stories from your work experience where you've encountered a hack that someone hacked in?

[23:50] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah. I was, you know, we was in penetration testing projects for one of our clients, an old company. We didn't receive too much, you know, penetration testing project. It was like projects from our clients only. They are already clients on our company. We are offering them penetration testing and so on.

[24:11] Ayman Elsawah: I see.

[24:11] Hossam Mohamed: So they accepted, you know, However, I was working alone with this project, really. Yeah, there wasn't any kind of activity or something like that. It was like assessment, you know, and exploitation. That's it. And you do it, you're nice to report. But, you know, we was like kind of late on deadline for this project. So I told my manager, it's okay. It's okay, I will deliver the report on Monday. Somehow I delivered this report with the engagement and contract. They allowed us, if you give it to a resource, to the organization, you can do whatever you want without affecting employees or company data. So we don't want to lose any data. Then it was okay, you know. So I chose Monday because, you know, I wanted to send them the new domain controller password.

[25:15] Hossam Mohamed: I know this is not common to penetration testing scenarios, of course. And not kind of, you know, penetration testing engagement will allow some kind of stuff. But I just did it for fun, you know.

[25:29] Ayman Elsawah: How did you get it?

[25:31] Hossam Mohamed: Just escalating Chromebooks to other and so on. It was like small organizations that would have one domain controller, two file servers, but too much endpoints.

[25:42] Ayman Elsawah: What was your first foothold? How did you first get in?

[25:45] Hossam Mohamed: It was a really old WordPress instance. There was running blog, not even a blog, it's like internal blog for them, but it

[26:01] Hossam Mohamed: If you want to classify as exploitation type, first limited shell or broken authentication. Okay. And they was like hosting this WordPress on Windows 3. So yeah, I'm on DMZ from outside. So it was really great actually. Okay. This is one of the easiest Pentest projects I did, but this is not even a Pentest project, actually. You know, just for fun, you know.

[26:29] Ayman Elsawah: That's cool. Yeah. Good. So you have an upcoming B-Sides talk.

[26:34] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, about B-Sides, yeah.

[26:36] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah, B-Sides Istanbul. Anything you want to talk about that?

[26:39] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah besides istanbul going to be one of the biggest conferences on the area you know because we have like kind of hacking villages and so on by the way i'm one of organizing team for besides istanbul okay as well you know this guy is doing really great work okay by the way they are starting rescheduling the conference to october right and you know there's a lot of Heavy stuff we are preparing for like car hacking and iot scale systems hackings and so on we have a lot of workshops we have a lot of trainings and you know it's going to be really one of the biggest information security conferences in the area i believe in that's awesome yeah that's really exciting Yeah, I believe that's what's going, you know, bringing something new to the area.

[27:28] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah, looking forward to it. And then you're giving a talk as well?

[27:31] Hossam Mohamed: Yeah, I'm giving a talk about a small research about IBC exploitation, Windows operating systems, like how you can, you know, discover some kind of IBC issues on applications. And even, you know, I will release some tools as well. And there is another friend talking about automation and backbone technology. I also, you know, I will share some scripts with him, you know, release some tools and so on. But my main talk is about IBC exploitation and I will release some exploits templates and, you know, make people focus more on IBC and all this stuff in Windows operating system because you may find an IBC bug on one of Windows executables, default Windows executables to be specific, and you would gain zero

[28:22] Hossam Mohamed: Like Moocode execution from zero. So sounds really good.

[28:27] Ayman Elsawah: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds exciting. That sounds really exciting. That's awesome. Well, Hossam, thank you for your time, especially on a Saturday. You're welcome. And yeah, look forward to meeting in person at B-Sides Istanbul.

[28:40] Hossam Mohamed: I will see you there. Okay.

[28:41] Ayman Elsawah: Thanks a lot. Take care. Take care. Hey, thanks for listening. So I built a lot of things and I'm building something new. I'm working on a new community. I want to bring everyone together with all the things that I've done into just one space. So I'm really excited about it and would love to stay in touch and get some early adopters or feedback. So check out the link below in the show notes and send me a hello. And that's about it. I hope you're having a wonderful day. Thanks. Talk to you soon.